help me with this team

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Tj1901, Mar 20, 2017.

  1. Tj1901

    Tj1901 New Member

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    hey guys I new to vgc and i need your help in my team that i made. i have some trouble against trick room teams and sun teams and i don´t know what to do against. the team is down below.
    Garchomp @ Groundium Z
    Ability: Rough Skin
    Level: 50
    EVs: 4 HP / 220 Atk / 32 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Poison Jab
    - Swords Dance
    - Protect

    Arcanine @ Aguav Berry
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 164 HP / 140 Atk / 20 Def / 84 SpD / 100 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Extreme Speed
    - Flare Blitz
    - Bulldoze
    - Protect

    Tapu Koko @ Normalium Z
    Ability: Electric Surge
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Nature Power
    - Volt Switch
    - Protect
    - Nature's Madness

    Kartana @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Beast Boost
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Sacred Sword
    - Leaf Blade
    - Smart Strike
    - Protect

    Metagross @ Weakness Policy
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 HP / 76 Atk / 184 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Meteor Mash
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Protect
    - Bullet Punch

    Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
    Ability: Misty Surge
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 HP / 108 Def / 12 SpA / 136 SpD
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Calm Mind
    - Heal Pulse
    - Protect
    - Muddy Water
     
  2. MrTalent

    MrTalent New Member

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    For arcanine, especially a bulkier set, i'd prefer will-o just for the chance to burn and cripple something on a switch prediction or on something like alolan muk! It'll conflict with fini a bit but can still be useful as bulldoze is a bit mediocre at best. You could even lose the fini and throw on a gyarados instead for double intimidate and a nice ground immunity. If only have one special attacker is a concern and you make those changes, replacing metagross with a special attacking celesteela with protect, flamethrower, giga drain, flash cannon, air slash, leech seed, & substitute being your best options to choose from. If special attacking celesteela ain't up your alley, try out tapu lele with psychium z since you have the steel type coverage through kartana. You can also still espeed flying/levitate mons with arcanine too. Just some suggestions :)
     
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  3. Nazara

    Nazara Member

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    First of all, what are you doing to address those issues? While asking others for advice is good, it is imperative that you take innitiative and begin the brainstorming process by yourself. Main issue I see with that team is a lack of primary speed control or a method to prevent Trick Room/Tailwind from happening. Taunt on Koko or even Fini, Roar on Arcanine, or replacing a Pokemon you feel is not as important (maybe either Kartana or Metagross given that running double Steel types is very difficult to run due to the stacked weaknesses that brings) for something more useful can prove useful.
     
  4. Ace Trainer Andrew

    Ace Trainer Andrew Member

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    I would consider looking at Gigalith, perhaps to replace the Metagross (or anything else really - your choice, but Metagross just seems like the most logical to me after a cursory glance). Gigalith is really great at dealing with Torkoal, and you said sun was an issue. Just be sure to watch out for Lilligant, especially the Bloom Doom variant. Gigalith is also a great check to a number of Trick Room teams, seeing as how it's so slow, and how it has access to Curse. Outside of Trick Room, it could really compliment your Garchomp and Kartana (and, if you keep it, the Metagross). Sandstorm will increase their SpDef, so you may consider adjusting the sets accordingly. I wonder if anyone has tried Assault Vest Kartana in the sand... :)
     
  5. Nazara

    Nazara Member

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    @Ace Trainer Andrew , Sandstorm only increases the SpDef of Rock types. Neither Garchomp, Kartana, nor Metagross will receive any benefit from Sandtream.
     
  6. Mattattak

    Mattattak New Member

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    I would probbably recomend taunt over natures madness on koko if your struggling with tr. Also if you want to beat sun teams just lead fini arcanine.
     
  7. Cleffy

    Cleffy Member

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    Firstly, making the most out of your EV spreads can often help out against most match-ups. It won't be enough to automatically win against certain archetypes or opponents, but it's probably one of the most consistent factors that you can control in my opinion. Specifically, here are a few observations I would suggest on your given EV spreads. (I'm gonna use a couple spoilers throughout this post to make it look a bit more concise.)

    • Your Tapu Fini spread seems to be built with bulky offensive goals in mind, but you use a modest nature even though Tapu Fini's special defense is its naturally highest stat. If you simply switch the nature from modest to calm and reallocate EVs to match your previous stats with the modest nature, you'll find that it frees up 32 EVs. This equates to an extra 4 stat points which could come in handy for koing or surviving on that extra roll.
    • When the Pokemon is set to level 50, a stat point is typically gained whenever the EV count in a single stat equals a number 8n+4 (in other words, 4, 12, 20, 28...) when its IV is odd, which is likely the case if you're running max ivs. This means Garchomp can run a 28 EV in spdef and add 4 EVs to Defense to increase its physical bulk, and Kartana can add 4 EVs to any of its bulk stats to potentially survive some combination of attacks if its sash won't come into play. You also have the option of removing 8 EVs from one of Metagross's stats (in tandem with reducing Metagross's speed to 180, which shouldn't change its overall speed stat) and adding 4 EVs into both of Metagross's defensive stats to get a stat point in both defenses at the cost of a single stat point elsewhere, as well as increasing Tapu Fini's speed by 1 point by investing 4 EVs into it (which would otherwise go unallocated), though each of these cases have inherent trade-offs which can be justified. Also keep in mind that investing those 4 EVs into Garchomp's Defense should alter any of Porygon2's potential download boost combinations.
    • While not inherently a recommendation for this team in particular, I would highly recommend Stat's Survival Calculator that was posted on the home page a few days ago when balancing hp, def, and spdef. It's an amazing resource, and I owe a lot of gratitude to Stats and those who helped him make it.

    After these considerations, this is a bit more what I'd imagine the stats to look like (putting the extra EVs Tapu Fini gains into special attack for general damage purposes, removing 8 EVs from Metagross's HP to boost the defenses, and putting 4 EVs in Kartana's HP).
    Garchomp @ Groundium Z
    Ability: Rough Skin
    Level: 50
    EVs: 4 HP / 220 Atk / 4 Def / 28 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Poison Jab
    - Swords Dance
    - Protect

    Arcanine @ Aguav Berry
    Ability: Intimidate
    Level: 50
    EVs: 164 HP / 140 Atk / 20 Def / 84 SpD / 100 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Extreme Speed
    - Flare Blitz
    - Bulldoze
    - Protect

    Tapu Koko @ Normalium Z
    Ability: Electric Surge
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Nature Power
    - Volt Switch
    - Protect
    - Nature's Madness

    Kartana @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Beast Boost
    Level: 50
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Sacred Sword
    - Leaf Blade
    - Smart Strike
    - Protect

    Metagross @ Weakness Policy
    Ability: Clear Body
    Level: 50
    EVs: 244 HP / 76 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 180 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Meteor Mash
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Protect
    - Bullet Punch

    Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
    Ability: Misty Surge
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 HP / 108 Def / 132 SpA / 12 SpD / 4 Spe
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Calm Mind
    - Heal Pulse
    - Protect
    - Muddy Water

    Feel free to hmu if you'd like a second opinion on some EV spreads in the future (or anybody else really).

    As for some personal insight on the team composition and strategy, it's somewhat difficult without hearing an explanation of the sets. Nature's Power is somewhat unusual on an offensive Tapu Koko, while heal pulse is unusual on a setup Tapu Fini. At least that's been my experience with them. And while unusual isn't bad per say, it would still be helpful to hear for people to provide the most constructive feedback possible.

    When I consider how I want to take on any threat in this game, I usually try to look for one of three potential options.

    1. Is there a way I can react to the threat should it come out? That is, can I converge to some kind of strategy when the threat presents itself that I don't need to prepare in advance? (for example, switching your Garchomp in against an Arcanine in misty terrain is often considered pretty safe since Arcanine usually carries fire and electric coverage offensively, and the pressure of will o wisp is negated by the misty terrain field effect. While you may have to prepare the Misty terrain in advance depending on the Arcanine, your Garchomp will often be a safe reactive measure against Arcanines)
    2. Can I prevent the threat from coming to fruition? That is, can I diverge from some strategy in such a way that it prevents the opening of a threat from forming? (A lot of times this comes in the form of preventing Trick room or stat boosts from setting up. It can also mean leading in such a way that limits the amount of damage more hyper offensive teams can deal so that you can better attempt to limit the amount of damage a hyper offensive lead can do, since they tend to be hard to switch into)
    3. Can I enact a fair trade in exchange for the threat? That is, can I through some combination of moves take out the threat even if it means giving something up in the process? (There are a couple of trades that I find myself recognizing every now and then, so I'll share a few of them. While not generally recognized as a trade, a good way to take out a threat of something in the back is through a pin, which roughly means pressuring the target if it stays in, and pressuring what it's likely to switch into. One move may be ineffective against the final target, but in exchange, the other move will be very effective. Another trade I often look for is something I call a "Drop and Switch" method. The idea here is that if your opponent KOs one of your Pokemon, you can bring in another Pokemon that either threatens what is currently in, or threatens to safely set up against whatever is currently in. A third trade I often notice is what I like to call an "Overextention". It's similar to a pin in some senses, but it basically involves putting your opponent in a position where their threat can't satisfy all the goals it is meant to achieve in a given turn. An example of this is using a 75% hp Tapu Fini and a 25% Arcanine to threaten a +2 Kartana at 20% hp; if the Kartana KOs Fini, it will faint to the Arcanine, while if it KOs the Arcanine it will faint to the Fini. By getting both on the field and double targetting the Kartana, it cannot possibly KO both of them in that turn and will ultimately go down to one of them.)

    From this, we can start to approach how the current state of the team can take on trick room and sun.

    If we're taking on Trick Room, then we either need some way of preventing trick room from going up, we need to be able to send in a slow Pokemon of our own to turn their trick room against them, or we need our team to be capable of tanking hits from the trick room core and trade for damage and KOs as we try to stall them out. When it comes to preventing Trick Room, taunting the opponent as other people have suggested is a good start for stopping certain trick room setters like Porygon2. However, you'll have to adapt when the opponent is running something else like mental herb Oranguru or Mimikyu. Swapping out a Pokemon (likely Metagross) for a slow Pokemon like Gigalith as Ace Trainer Andrew suggested could be a promising way to turn the opposing team's trick room mode against them, but it's important you can get off enough pressure against the common trick room Pokemon, otherwise they break through the rest of your team while you're left trying to keep up. Losing your Trick Room answer premature will also make it hard to recover against a Trick Room team if it sets up trick room again, but it may buy time for your faster Pokemon to get off damage out of Trick Room, or it may discourage the opponent from playing offensively in trick room which may allow you to stall out their Trick Room more effectively, and force them to trick room a second time. Hard Trick Room tends to be built really bulky and offensive since it doesn't usually appreciate speed investments, so I think making trades will be difficult using stats alone; you'd need to overcome it with type or technical advantages.

    All three approaches have their strengths and weaknesses, and this is a part of the reason why Trick Room teams can still break through teams that have options for taking on Trick Room. There isn't an easy-out against Trick Room, but recognizing the different options you have available can help you to stand a better chance against them.

    Sun as a team composition can be a bit more diverse, so it's hard to pinpoint its exact weakpoints. In my experience, they all tend to have Torkoal accompanied by Pokemon like Oranguru, as well as faster options like Lilligant w/ Tapu Lele or Bulu (since Lele or Bulu can override sleep preventing terrains, and Torkoal's fire move options can break through the steel types that Lele can fall to). They also tend to pair Oranguru with an Explosion user to weaken the current threats so that Torkoal Oranguru can start to sweep. I would consider approaching the Oranguru portion of the team similarly to how I would approach Trick room; you want to get damage on the Torkoal ASAP or else its eruption can do considerable damage. But you'll also have to figure out how you can react to a potential turn 1 exploder, how you can prevent the exploder from exploding or doing much damage, or how you can trade parts of your lead to the explosion in exchange for a strong board position against the Torkoal on the following turns.

    The Lilligant portion of the team can be a bit more difficult, since it can threaten the combination of Bloom doom/Leaf Storm, Fast Hidden Power, Fast Sleep Powder (with or without a slow switch into Tapu Lele/Bulu to override terrain sleep preventing terrains), as well as the constant fire pressures exerted by Torkoal. Arcanine stands out to me as an excellent option here, since it can threaten Lilligant, resist their moves offensively, and KO Lilligant after bringing it down to sash using extreme speed. The sleep powder option is still concerning, but if lead with Fini you can force them to switch Torkoal out if they want to accomplish this, and even then there's the chance they can miss and you can start burning sleep turns. These stand out to me as options that can help you prevent some of the momentum Lilligant Torkoal can pick up from the start. Putting Gigalith on the Team in place of Metagross would again function as a good reactive option against Lilligant Torkoal. It may struggle to take a sleep powder or Grass attack, but at least it can mitigate the fire damage Torkoal can dish out, reduce Lilligant's speed, break Lilligant's potential sash, and force them to play their team more carefully around Gigalith. This could be a good area to try taking trades though, since Torkoal is slow and may not KO certain Pokemon without the help of Lilligant damage-wise, Lilligant can usually only patch up Torkoal's speed defecit with after you or pressure a single Pokemon at any point in time, and for them to pivot their torkoal into Lele or Bulu, it can buy you a turn to try abusing an opening against their team.

    Again, I wouldn't say there's an easy out against these types of teams, but considering all your potential options for taking on the matchup can help you win more consistently against it. Figuring out where you want to diverge from, where you want to converge to, and how you can create favorable trades can help you to win more consistently against these types of teams.

    In short, I think taking on these type of teams is a lot more technical than people make it out to be. It's more than just having the ability to take on a certain matchup, but also recognizing those options, how they must be played and prepared, and putting that knowledge into action. Most match-ups in Pokemon, and especially doubles, tend to be toss-ups rather than winning/losing matchups, and you can better define these winning and losing conditions by identifying how they play rather than what Pokemon they are.

    I apologize if this post came off as wordy and confusing, and I'm sorry if it wasn't of any help. But I think theorying this stuff in as much depth as possible is valuable for improvement and fully considering all options at your disposal.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
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  8. Tj1901

    Tj1901 New Member

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    thank you for your advise. about fini nature i have modest because i thought it was the best nature for single and doubles i cannot change it. about heal pulse i have change to moonblast.
     

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