Introducing Yoshi’s Invitational

Discussion in 'Articles' started by Dawg, Jan 31, 2017.

  1. R Inanimate

    R Inanimate Well-Known Member

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    You may not believe after all hazing, and the revolving door of dead memes that goes on in the community on twitter, but civil discussions about sensitive subjects was a normal occurances before a combination of factors that simply led to a drift to people only communicating on twitter. There used to be a bit more communication and feedback between the community and TPCi that was done through the forums, discussing things about tourney structure and the like. But that feels like it's completely halted during mid 2015 and all of 2016. Discussions like those were some things I missed of the past, so it's nice to see we can at least have this discussion going. One that isn't limited on 140c per post, and subjected to selective hearing.

    I don't doubt that Markus is running this on good intentions, and dispite what went on on twitter, I'm pretty sure a lot of people are the same in that regard. If it was just about anyone other than Markus being the host for this, there would be way more vocal issues and people believing that this is just a cash-grab disguised as growth for the game, but it's pretty easy for people to get swept in the tide of controversy on twitter, especially due to some of the more questionable decisions regarding the operations of the tourney as discussed by previous posters. Some of the issues are reminiscent of that VGC documentary project that Wolfey tried to kickstart but fell through, which I feel like a lot of us would rather pretend that never happened.
     
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  2. Green

    Green New Member

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    I might not be active anymore in the VGC circuit myself, but I do love watching the games, tournaments and to keep up with everything is nice. I was really excited when I initially heard about the tournament and see some of the big names trying to take eachother out, it's almost guaranteed good content.

    However I really fail to see why funding is needed for this. If you want to establish yourself and make VGC stand out in a positive way of light, you should focus on just playing the tournament instead of trying to raise money for it. With the current structure, all people will remember the fundraiser that was set up and not the tournament itself. No matter how great the games will be, the tournament will not go down in history with the games played, but with the money they tried to earn. I would say this is not the way to promote the game and get it the status you want to.
     
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  3. Swanner

    Swanner Member

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    Lots of issues have been covered already, so I'm going to focus on one issue in particular. A conflict of interest.

    Playing in your own cash tournament is morally wrong. Period. Markus is giving himself a chance at winning a tournament pot that he should have absolutely no part in. If you are going to put your own name on the event and organize it, you can't turn around and take advantage of the conditions that you have created yourself.

    To illustrate, one condition within Markus' control was the invitation structure. It is reasonable to assume that the invites were personally decided by Markus himself. Because he has direct control of who enters the event, he could theoretically only invite players who are less skilled than him and have an easy win. While I respect him for not doing this, the conditions exist within this tournament structure for the organizer to take advantage of the players.

    TOs are supposed to be neutral arbiters of the rules. As such, that position becomes compromised as soon as they have a stake in the tournament. This is why sanctioned judges and organizers are banned from entering their own events.

    If TPCi is going to hold their TOs to ethical standards, then I believe we, as a community, should hold grassroots organizers accountable for doing the same.
     
  4. Max_VGC

    Max_VGC New Member

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    The picked players seem questionable. Why is Alex Ogloza, who doesnt even activly play vgv anymore picked. Also loecu can be discussed as he had decent results but there are like 100 plauers with those. And where the flip are aaron traylor Ezrael and edu. Like if yoshi picks himself cause he got top4 why wouldn't he pick the other top4s. Also idk about the superhigh pricepool. Wouldnt less money archiev the same
     
  5. momoVGC

    momoVGC Member

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    I feel like this was a case of best intentions going somewhat astray - the invitational is a great idea but partially crowdfunding the prize pool with minimal 'influencing' power to the donor is just not great. Though I think this is a step in the right direction and since there aren't many tournaments quite like this, I'd hope Markus isn't too discouraged and takes it as a learning experience for the next invitational he runs.

    I reckon having an open pre-invitational tournament that gives top 8 or whatever depending on participants entry into the invitational with the 'seeded' players might be a great idea. Build up hype on these up and comers by writing articles. interviews, profiles, etc. alongside the 'seeded' players and definitely ensure that a % of the donated prize pool goes to charity. One way to choose the 'seeded' players, is to encourage donors to 'seed' a player in the lead up to the invitational. Ideally, you could invite top 4 worlds automatically and then let donors determine the other 4-12 spots based on popularity etc. Build that sweet hype and make it a highlight of the non-official VGC calendar.
     
  6. Max_VGC

    Max_VGC New Member

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    Having pre qualifierers would have made it a lot more fair. As now they are selected at will of one. Oh and I gavin not playing isnt really justified either. Like alex ogloza has a yt channal but didnt accomplish much post vgc14. *Cough *youtubertournament
     
  7. pantsonhead

    pantsonhead New Member

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    The amount greed and ego involved in this is rather disgusting.

    If you are truly interested in helping the community, and not lining your own pockets, please stop with this rubbish and all the esports nonsense.
     
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  8. tbodle

    tbodle Member

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    As someone who is relatively new to the VGC community, but has followed other eSports for the majority of the last decade I see one glaring problem with this.

    " The tournament also features a $1,000 stretch-goal to add 2014 world champion Sejun Park to the tournament in addition to a special stream from Stadter and Glick once $2,000 is reached. Those who donate certain amounts will be rewarded with various benefits as well, such as coaching from some of the competitors. Regardless, the final pot value will determine how prizes are awarded to players."

    Oh boy. Okay. Here's the thing.

    The way this is written appears to say that this tournament is hosted by a terrible mobile gaming experience. We've all seen them before; download the game for free, but to get move levels/playtime/items pay $ x.99. This isn't true crowdfunding for a video game tournament. Look at some of the most successful eSports out there that choose to crowd fund their events/pay their participants. League of Legends has summoner icons, or skins for your champions. DoTA 2 does this as well. Call of Duty this past year had weapon skins and player customization packs if I remember correctly. Hearthstone has card backings. What do all of these things have in common? The person donating/purchasing gets a promised, guaranteed value for a small/reasonable amount of money. They are all very successful following these types of business models because their tournament and fan experience isn't hindered in any way if more or less people decide to donate or purchase something.

    The other reason that type of funding is beneficial is because you create word of mouth advertising by giving those donators some type of incentive. "Hey guys, look at the cool thing I got because I did X for this tournament." It creates conversation, and in turn can help grow your eSport because of that conversations and drawing more eyes to the product you are putting out there. The way this is set up, going by the article and the crowd funding page, the value provided for the money requested is astronomical. The "rewards" are as follows . . .

    1.) The 8th competitor won't even play unless we hit $1000 in funding.
    2.) No offense to Wolfe, I'm sure he's a nice guy, but at $1500 he's promising a top 8 report from his last tourney which he's done plenty of times in the past for free on his YouTube channel.
    3.) At $2000 they will do a "fun" stream with goofy game types.
    4.) You can purchase various items that in reality, they didn't want or need, and they are all expensive (For instance, breedjects for $15.00 when you can find competing services on eBay for as low as $5.00 per).

    If you truly want to crowd fund this event, that's fine. But find something to make it truly worthwhile to those who donate to you. Give them a breedject with a special marking/name change to showcase the named player they got it from. Give them a watermarked .jpeg image to use on forums or as a twitch avatar to raise awareness of the event. Give them something that makes them feel valued. Without small things like this, fans can quickly feel used and upset which will lead to lesser funded events in the future and a stagnation of the games competitive growth because of it.

    Right now this feels like a cash grab, which is a complete turn-off of the event in the first place.

    Apologies for wall of text.

    TL;DR: Poorly worded/constructed event in terms of crowd - funding, fans effectively get zero value for their purchase unless they want to pay higher than average pricing or just want to "unlock" the full tourney, feels like a cash grab.
     
  9. snooze11

    snooze11 Member

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    I'm honestly so stoked for this tournament and guess what I'll even donate. As an esport journalist my-self I've been wanting someone, anyone really to do and invite only prestigious high level tournament! All the other major esports have these exact type of tournaments and for the very first tournament of its kind for VGC I think it's a perfect base. I feel so bad for markus and Wolfe and whoever else helped put his together because the community has been so closed mined to an event like this that its almost sad to read the comments. I honestly couldn't care less where the damn money goes if it goes into the pocket of the players then okay, if it goes into making another invite only with a bigger player base invited then so be it even if it goes to buying McDonald's well hey I helped feed someone who gives me great content, I'm not donating with a "what's in it for me" mindset I'm donating to support the game of Pokémon and the growth of the community also Ive seen a lot of talk about invite "new" players and get them exposure. My thoughts are there is a reason guys like Wolfe, Markus, baz, Jamie boyt, Ashton cox, arash, ray rizzo ect. Are well known it's because they are the most consistent and winning players! You see "new" people on stream at worlds and nationals ALL THE TIME and some times they even beat well known players but I can garentee you don't go and try to find a twitter handle for them to follow and support to give them exposure and why? Because the difference is these new players aren't as nearly as consistent as the "pros" if you will, so deep down you don't really care because that "new" guy didn't win worlds or nationals. Heck if your so set on getting new players exposure go follow me right now on twitter @snoozevgc and actually follow other new players who preformed well at that random regional. every pro players got to where he is on his own skill. Don't blame well known players for the absence of fresh meat. In the future this tournament could easily highlight lesser knowns but goodness people it's the first one EVER don't condemn it because it's not perfect. this tournament is the step in the right direction to getting more exposure for VGC if it wasnt for popular players like Wolfe I wouldn't be playing VGC right now and with 8 big names coming together I think you'll be surprised about how much GOOD influence it can have for new and veteran players and the community. We need to come together if we want to actually be taken seriously. Keep doing you Markus you have my support.
     
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  10. CCCP

    CCCP Member

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    There's no point in beating this dead horse anymore, so instead of pointing out issues that others have mentioned much more eloquently that I could ever do, I'd like to give a suggestion.
    Giving breedjects for 15$ is not only greedy but also laughably stupid as an incentive (not to mention that you're giving mons that are pretty much worthless in this format). Why don't you organize a lottery where donators can win the player's teams? Or even better, give away those teams as donation incentive (you could just inject infinite copies of 'em after the tournament and by this point I don't think anyone would have something against it) instead of tossing imperfect gastly and bronzor around.
     
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  11. 1quacka1

    1quacka1 New Member

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    It doesn't matter what the actual intentions of Markus and co are, what matters is how those intentions are perceived by people not in his very limited circle. Right now, as evidenced by the responses in this thread, even other VGC players have perceived this to be a lazy cash grab by a select circle of friends designed to "grow the community". It's not a perception about top VGC players you want to project to the general public if one of the aims is to help VGC grow.

    If you want the tournament to go ahead in its current form, donating the money to charity eliminates the controversy. Or, if you want to keep the competition aspect, a charity of the winner's choice.
     
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  12. Hibiki

    Hibiki Well-Known Member

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    This is an incredibly hot topic and I'm careful not to take sides here and try to be as objective as possible.

    Markus stated on Twitter that he'd personally use the prize money to fund more of these/more tournaments in general. Which is super cool.

    Yet, what ultimately ended up on the receiving, the community's end, is something like this:
    Markus inviting 7 of his friends to play in a prestigious invitational tournament with live coverage to show some exceptional play. Up to this point we're still cool.
    But then the money comes in.
    • Amalgame is throwing $400 into the pot after masa repeatedly expressed concern about the future of the site and the Japanese offline scene because of the lack of proper funding. So why is he suddenly using money from his website to support a tournament with 0 Japanese players involved? It's just very confusing and I personally have no idea how and why this is happening, so clearing that one up would've helped.
    • The whole donation drive was very poorly executed. The stretch goals look ridiculous in the eyes of people actually involved with the games, it's blatantly obvious that their purpose is to catch naive fans/people not involved in actual competition and get them to throw money into the pot. There could've been so many different ways to handle this and it just seems that you guys chose to most disrespectful and ridiculous one.
    • The above point leads directly into the next - why are we, as a community, funding a tournament that seemingly has loads of money flowing into the pocket of whoever wins this?
      As stated above, Markus expressed his goodwill about winning that money, but at the same time that made it seem like any of the 8 participants has full control over what to do with the money - so yes, to bystanders it seems like we'd personally fund whoever wins this. This is the main source of the backlash and the ridicule you've received on Twitter for this.
      If you've had different intentions, then make them clear, please! Right now it just seems like you're asking people to donate so they receive the privilege of watching 8 friends who happen to be good at this game duke it out.
    • The above point is amplified by the fact that you're putting the arguably most recognizable, most well-known and beloved high-level player Sejun behind a $1000 donation drive pay-wall. It might seem like a funny and cute idea at first, but deep down it just makes it seem like you're trying really hard to make people donate at least $1000 to this tournament. Which, as mentioned above, we don't know will be used for, and the standard assumption is that it goes into somebody's pocket.
    At least two of the four points above can probably be blamed by terrible, terrible execution of the announcement.
    Maybe you had good intentions.
    Maybe Amalgame has a good reason to be in on this.
    But you need to tell us. You should have told us beforehand, too. The PR blunder happened, and it'll be difficult to control the damage done. But if you are serious about making this happen, and if you're serious about having better intentions than what it looks like right now, there's still room to fix it.

    I'm sorry for all the backlash you received on Twitter, some of it was probably a little bit too harsh. But you also have to understand the cause of the outrage.
     
  13. Zelda

    Zelda miho miho mii VGC 2017 World Runner-Up

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    I'm not going to be criticizing Markus or anyone about the tournament, I think it's a fantastic idea and I think it'll be a great event to watch that'll bring growth to the competitive scene!

    But the structure just needs to be revised, that's all.

    Tried to keep my thoughts simple.
     
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  14. TheSaxlad

    TheSaxlad Well-Known Member Tournament Host

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    I'm going to throw my hat into the ring here with two thoughts:

    I don't think this tournament is marketed at the current high level VGC players. In my head the whole point of a tournament like this is to connect through the thousands of subscribers on each Youtube Channel to find more casual players willing to support the game. A lot of the top players will see this as Markus and his pals trying to make a quick buck and looking into this tournament they are totally correct. But to a player who watches competitive Pokemon because of this tournament, or a more casual player/spectator, they will see people who they recognise to be some of the best in the world duking it out on their Youtube channels, and why shouldn't they give to that?

    I believe this is proven by some of the responses above, take the difference between Blarajan and SnoozeVGC comments on this forum. Whilst both posts have their own merit, Blarajan is a well known, long time player with National and International results in his pocket, while SnoozeVGC is an obvious rookie, who currently plays casually (by the look of his twitter, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!). I think we need to understand the high level VGC are community are not the target market for this, and that it attempts to bring new players and casuals into the VGC scene, which can only benefit prize pools and competition, both in Online and Real life tournaments.

    That said, there are a ton of ethical dilemmas that have already been picked up by other people. But one I don't think has really been touched on is the lack of a centralised criteria for picking these players. As I alluded to earlier, this is very much stinks of Markus and his friends having a tournament for money. In the article Jason describes it as this,

    For me, an invitational like this needs to have a clear set of standards as to why the players have been chosen. If it was on YouTube figures alone you can understand Markus, Wolfe, Aaron, Thomas and Alex's inclusion. They all have thousands of viewers, but the rest of the playerbase is pretty weak in Youtube follows (all under 1000, and I can't even find a youtube for Sejun) and from the amount they have its likely that their follow base is mostly VGC players, which as we stated earlier are not the target audience.

    Again if we change the standard of inclusion to the best players in the world in VGC right now, we get the same effect, can you can argue that Aaron, Wolfe, Markus and Josh are all top players right now, but again the rest of the playerbase hasn't got the credentials to back this up, Alex Ogloza focuses more on singles on his channel, Sejun plays more TCG (and competed at TCG Worlds) and Thomas Gravouille, whilst being an extremely nice guy (and you should totally follow him) isn't a player on the same level as all of the others.

    Add to that the fact that you are missing the whole Top 8 of the London International, the only major international tournament that has taken place this year and you can see why people are complaining and pointing fingers at Markus. That said, there are two ways he can begin to fix this rather easily:

    1. Take himself out of the tournament as a priority, it isn't ethically correct, and actually for viewing figures Markus would be 100% more useful as a host and commentator especially with his commentary experience on the EU circuit.

    2. Revise the player criteria and actually decide what this tournament is, is it the best players in the world right now? or is it VGC youtubers promoting the game? There is no reason it can't be both, but we need some clarification as to why these players are playing, "I chose them" isn't going to cut it.

    This is a great premise, and could grow the community, but right now there are massive ethical dilemmas, that have been touched on by the posts before and myself, that stop this tournament from being a positive influence on the scene, and until these are resolved why should we support it?
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2017
  15. TheSaxlad

    TheSaxlad Well-Known Member Tournament Host

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    I also feel like it would be useful to keep the first post updated with all of the topics covered in the discussion, so it doesn't go round in circles/same points keep getting repeated again and again. Any chance of this happening?
     
  16. 13Yoshi37

    13Yoshi37 Well-Known Member NPA 6 Champion

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    First of all I'd like all of you for the various concerns you have raised. While I knew that some questions would still be open after the announcement and tournament post, I clearly didn't expect the reactions I got on this and I'll try to make the intentions behind this tournament as clear as I can. You have to see that almost all of the replies I got about this tournament when presenting the idea to someone have been highly positive. Hence I might have failed to change perspective and see it with the eyes of someone who wasn't involved in the whole process of putting this together and I can tell you it took quite a while.

    I'll touch the most common concerns I've seen on social media, in this thread or that I got via private messages.


    Where is the money coming from?

    I'll just start with this because it's pretty easy to answer. The money AMALGAME uses to support this tournament is essentially the money that I rejected to receive for the articles I'm writing for them. I didn't get a single cent for the articles I already wrote for them or those that I will write in the future. I'm supporting their project because I believe in it and because I believe that it can be a good thing for the community and the players and not because I want to enrich myself. Matcherino was also on board very quickly as they were interested in the Pokemon VGC scene and hence agreed to forgo any of their regular charges and instead back up the tournament with $200 in the form of coupon codes that anyone can use for free (even if you are not donating). So if you combine that with the $100 Wolfe added, that is $700.


    Why does it need donations?

    This tournament is a beta test. My first idea was to not ask for donations, not participate and instead host it and reach out to various companies to ask for funding. I have some channels to reach out to global players in various industries and wanted to get a tournament sponsored by one of them to raise publicity for the scene and to get more potential sponsors interested.
    However, I had some questions that were not easy to answer because no one has ever done a tournament like this. Could I provide a high quality stream for games where we'd have to restream their gameplay? How many concurrent viewers could this tournament have on average? 200? 500? 2000? I had no idea about the second question especially and thought that instead it would be a good idea to ask the community for funding to get everyone involved. Then for the second edition of this tournament, I could have presented the numbers of the first one to demonstrate that this is something the community is behind and willing to support.
    As for the donation incentives, it wasn't very easy to come up with something cool and cheap especially considering that I already had put money and time towards this. So we ended up with coaching lessons, which is something that neither Wolfe, Aaron nor me would do before or after this. In addition we also added some goofy things like the hats and the breedjects. It's not about us thinking that you should pay that much for them, but we wanted to give at least something back to people who wanted to donate and be a part of this.

    Where is the money going to?

    The idea was that the money that is coming in from the sponsors will be used as prizes for the top finishers of the tournament. I also wanted to give some back to every player regardless of placement for the time they were willing to invest into this. However it was dependant on how the crowdfunding goes regarding how much that would be and how much I would pay from my own pocket. Then the money raised by the community would go towards the second edition of Yoshi's Invitational which is basically the real deal. I'll talk about it and the structure I had thought of further down below.


    Why were these players invited?

    There are a few limiting factors in terms of who I could invite to this. First, everyone but one player needs to have a capture card and the ability to stream in high quality to ensure that every single match can be broadcasted. Secondly, since I wanted the first tournament to be in a friendly and fun atmosphere, I reached out to players I knew well first. Now I know that there also are some other serious contenders for a slot in this, but eventually I was satisfied with the list I had after I had some players drop out because of scheduling difficulties. All 7 of them are known figures in the community and make the tournament familiar for the viewerbase. It is a blessing that we have 3 previous US National Champions that are so dedicated to producing content and willing to help the community out. Joshua Lorcy was first intended to join the show as a host, but then replaced a player that couldn't make time for this tournament. Haricot was chosen because he was in contact with an esport organisation before (Millenium) and could bring in the French community which is a little bit seperated from the rest at the moment (which I also knew due to Dr Sugus asking me to help in his attempt to have some foreign top players make short videos in French to get the French community involved in VGC in general). I chose PokeAlex because he's someone who is very dedicated about the game and I wanted another player from Europe with recent success. I am sure I could have chosen other players here as well as this slot didn't require to have a capture card, but I decided to go with Alex because I knew that he's very reliable, passioned, hard working, fluent in English, likeable etc.
    Finally I reached out to Sejun Park to also get someone from Asia involved. I knew that he was looking to stream anyway and that he had the requirements. Due to timezones differences, he would have to play at 4 am his time, however. Therefore I wanted to make sure that the tournament is at least a little bit of a success with at least ~$300 generated from donations before he'd have to play through the night, just so that it would be worth for him to do so.
    Finally I decided that I would participate myself because I wanted to be as involved into this as possible and already recently had given up on participating in the Melbourne Challenge in order to be able to stream it. After doing that I remembered my experiences with how it was to do commentary for Pokémon after which I had decided that my main passion in this game at the moment is playing and not commentating and so I figured I could as well play, since I also happen to have a name in the community and some following. If you read the previous paragraphs as well that you might realise that greed or anything like that was never any of my motive and that all I wanted was the best for this tournament and the community.

    edit: something I forgot to mention: I also wanted there to be at least some small room for improvement for the next edition. If the line up was already "perfect" for the first one, I thought that people might not be as interested in the second tournament with the same guys again. While of course some of the players featured here would probably return for the second edition, I am aware that some pretty obvious names are missing from that list (however also keep in mind that Capture Cards are a limiting factor).

    Plan for the future:

    So I already hinted at it several times here and it was (just like most of the other points I made here) mentioned in the write-up on Trainer Tower. The idea is to make this tournament a regular thing where we will establish interest from companies, media, people from other eSports sectors etc. I had many talks with people from various areas in eSports and all of them were shocked when I told them about the current situation of where competitive Pokemon VGC is at the moment, thinking that it must have way more potential than we are seeing at the moment. This tournament series was supposed to show everyone what Pokémon VGC can be like and attract sponsors etc for the scene.

    The structure for the second edition would also include a higher number of participants. While it might have maybe been possible to get 12 players in this tournament, it was already not easy to find 8 who have the time and are willing to put that into this event. My idea was that the first edition would be a success and show people who were not sure if it was worth determing their time to help out this project that it is in fact a fantastic opportunity for the game. If someone said "Sorry, I cannot play on that day because I have workout then", I wanted this tournament to be the reason the players couldn't follow their regular routine. I wanted this to be more important to them and the viewers than other commitments. Almost none of us is doing Pokémon full time, but this tournament seemed like the one thing where it could feel like Pokemon could go somewhere.

    Things the second edition would feature:
    - Open Qualifier
    since "only" 7/8 or 11/12 or 15/16 players need to have a Capture Card, one player can play without one. This spot would go to an Open Qualifier which would likely be hosted in affiliation with Trainer Tower (again, that was stated in the announcement post here). Whether it would be free to enter or with a small entry fee wasn't clear at this point in planning and I wanted to use the experience I'm getting from the first tournament to make that decision.
    - Fan voting
    The idea was that fans could vote in a poll to give some more slots to their favorite players. The list of players to select for this list would be tough though since we wouldn't want to turn this into a popularity contest, while on the same hand players on the list would need to be at least somewhat known, but the idea was to compile a list of everyone who has a capture card, a way to stream in good quality and is willing to put in the time and effort and then have a vote on them. I figured for the first tournament this wouldn't be very practical because there were already many things to deal with in a short amount of time and the outlines of the tournament would have needed to be final before voting could happen. I wanted this tournament to end before Australia, however. So eventually I decided against it for the first edition.
    - Better production
    Production won't be easy for the first tournament and there will be several occasions where we can learn from mistakes and prepare better. Again this first tournament is more of a Beta test. Afterwards I could have approached graphic artists and give them detailed wishes of what I would need to improve the quality. Furthermore by the end of the tournament I wanted to work out which set ups work best for players, viewers and commentators and since I haven't hosted a tournament like this before, I didn't see how I could approach bigger sponsors without any bigger experience in this regard. Therefore, again, the first tournament was intended to be held in a friendly atmosphere on my channel, with me playing.
    - Bigger Sponsor
    This is what it comes down to, probably. Initially, as I said, my plan was to approach big companies to see if they were interested in supporting a tournament like this. However I didn't have the expertise in hosting, the numbers of people interested or the support from the community which made me feel a bit helpless when I tried to compile the sponsor deck for them. Therefore it seemed very logical and reasonable to have the first tournament be without a sponsor from outside the VGC community and so I approached AMALGAME instead.

    To conclude all of this, I think it comes down to whether you guys would want this tournament to happen where Sejun Park could play against Wolfe Glick with Aaron Zheng and Alex Ogloza on the mic, which would produce around 14 hours of content of top level VGC play + commentary over four days or if you think that that is not necessary.

    I really hope that I managed to address all concerns and if I missed something, please let me know, but I won't be able to join in the discussion again before Thursday.

    I made a mistake in thinking that you would just blindly trust me and the others involved in this and I would want to apologise for that.

    Thanks for your time reading this and I hope that you will reconsider some of the things you said and think about whether this tournament is something good for the community or not again.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2017
    Kali, chund, momoVGC and 22 others like this.
  17. TheSaxlad

    TheSaxlad Well-Known Member Tournament Host

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    That clears a lot of things up, but:

    Whether or not greed was your motive, I don't think any TO for any tournament can justify putting themselves into the tournament on an ethical basis, whether they are the right fit for it or not. As long as you are playing in your own tournament, it won't be accepted by the majority of the community, because you are flouting a rule which has long held for Tournament Organisers in competitive play in all Esports, and for a good reason.

    That said, its good you have a plan for the future, and for now as long as you take yourself out of the tournament or get somebody else to run it for you, I can't see why this shouldn't be a good thing for boosting VGC as an Esport, and benefiting the community.
     
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  18. 2girls1muk

    2girls1muk Member

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    It's good to hear your perspective as well Markus, I think it quite eloquently addresses the various concerns people have in the community.
    I think what may have been more useful, as Hibiki has stated, may have been to issue a blanket statement prior to the announcement of this invitational to pre-emptively address potential concerns.

    It is always going to be up to the individual as to whether or not they will donate to the pool for a tournament such as this, and I really do commend you, Wolfe, and the others for trying to get VGC as an e-sport more globally recognized. I think that this is a case of great idea, but poor execution, and hopefully you (and the rest of the community) can be more on board for your future tournaments.

    I look forward to seeing how this all goes, and I sincerely wish you the best of luck
     
  19. Dylan

    Dylan New Member

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    Keeping it short and sweet, making this a donation driven tournament seems to be the way to start. Revising the 'stretch goals' is extremely necessary.
    Calling it a 'Beta test' and having money involved is probably not the best way to launch what would be a popular tournament in terms of viewership. Also making a tournament at this level of viewership a strict invitational seems to discourage community building.

    However....
    I personally love the idea of a 'top player' invitational because I think it's a way to bridge what I would call 'top teams' and 'normal teams' (plenty of other great reasons to list).
    It is also a great way to start trying to accomplish something I think we all want, VGC to be a globally recognised eSport.

    But, you should:
    Knock it down, start again. Work out a way to filter the good players from the bad (maybe by way of pools? I hear Pokemon Showdown is a pretty neat program), form a Top 16/32 and go from there.
    *Strictly my opinion.

    Best of luck.
     
  20. Tamtam

    Tamtam Member

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    Idk if this is a silly question or not, but if capture cards are a limiting factor, why not play over Showdown instead? I get that the 3DS footage looks a lot nicer and would give the stream a more "official" feeling, but I think having a larger pool of players to choose from would make up for it.

    As for where the money is going, I know this has been mentioned before, but a charity tournament sounds like a fantastic idea and would surely get more people to donate (including me!). It's a nice idea in any case. :)
     

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