Viability of Hail with Improved Mechanics?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by pyromaniac720, Mar 31, 2017.

  1. pyromaniac720

    pyromaniac720 New Member

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    Something I've been thinking about a lot is hail. I like the hail setters (Ice Cream and Ninetales) and there are plenty of options for Blizzard spam. However, every time I try to make a hail team (Or even a team with a two mon hail mode), it seems to flop. Of course, you do see plenty of teams that have Ninetales or sometimes Vanilluxe do well but there's never an actual hail core like there is for rain and sun. So my question is: Do you think an actual hail mode would be viable if ONE of the following two mechanic changes were implemented:
    • Ice types gain a 1.5x boost to their defense in hail (Just like Rock types' special defense boost in sand)
    • All ice type attacks get a 1.5x boost in power in hail (Just like water and fire moves in rain and sun respectively). Also, one move time that's super effective on ice would have power decreased in hail (Like fire and water moves in rain and sun).
    This intent of this question was regarding the current metagame but how these mechanic changes could affect future metagames is also an interesting discussion.
     
  2. Pyreon

    Pyreon Member

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    I would say the second option would definitely make Hail viable, if not straight out broken. Ice is an excellent offensive type, and if you give a boost to a 100% accurate 110 BP spread move that even has a chance to freeze, it would be close to broken and meta-defining.
    Although I see this more of a boost for individual setters themselves than a boost for their partners. A Slush Rush special attacker would be good in this scenario.

    As for the first option, I don't think it would mean much as Ice is a poor defensive type anyway. It would somehow improve Hail stall cores with Ice Body and so on, but I don't see it as a big improvement.

    I would like Hail to become viable though. It's a forgotten weather setting that surely needs a buff.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2017
  3. Cleffy

    Cleffy Member

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    With Blizzard/hail chip damage, Aurora veil support, Accurate blizzards, counter weather functionality, and the potential to abuse what is arguably the strongest status in the game, I think Ninetales is balanced right now and can support fast offensive threats really well right now. I think Vanilluxe is just short of the bulk, offense, and speed it needs to really capitalize on its matchups, and would need a buff in each of those areas to be a strong pokemon. It may be viable, but I think it will find itself overextended statwise for most matchups. I don't know how Abomasnow and Auroras will fair after the sun/moon mechanic changes in future formats. I imagine Auroras would be usually outclassed by the other weather setters, while Abomasnow may see more usage due to weaker Mega Competition, and new options with good type synnergy (Tapu Fini and Araquanid mostly). We'll see what happens whenever they are allowed in the future.

    As for slush rush abusers, the issue with them is that they don't really win a lot of the matchups that the setter alone doesn't already win in my opinion. Maybe this will change when more slush rush users are added to the game, or when faster pokemon 4x weak to ice are prominent like MegaMence and Scarf LandorusT.

    I don't think hail needs to be buffed as an archetype, and I think the second buff you recommended would be especially excessive. I think that Ninetales hail is perfectly fine where it's at, while the other options of hail need specific catering to be used effectively. Careful consideration would also need to be applied to avoid making hail overpowered.
     
  4. Mega Tapu Bulu

    Mega Tapu Bulu New Member

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    While Hail doesn't directly boost damage, a 110 BP spread move with 100% accuracy and freeze chance is VERY good. I'd rather face Rock Slide spam. And Aurora Veil adds insult to injury.

    It's balanced by the fact the only mon with Aurora Veil has slow SpAtk, so it can't do much damage on its own.
     
  5. Hamstermania(Koutesh)

    Hamstermania(Koutesh) Active Member

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    lemme get you some calcs that define how broken 1.5x ice damage would be
    252 SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 118-141 (80.8 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
    thats scarfed , now imagine vanilluxe in tailwind , thats where broken stuff begins!
    252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Helping Hand Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 169-200 (115.7 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Helping Hand Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Tapu Fini: 174-211 (98.3 - 119.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Helping Hand Blizzard vs. 84 HP / 164 SpD Assault Vest Kartana: 149-177 (102.7 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Helping Hand Blizzard vs. +1 12 HP / 220 SpD Drifblim: 211-250 (92.9 - 110.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO + hail damage = 90% OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Helping Hand Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Mudsdale: 203-242 (98 - 116.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
    Lets not implement that OK?
    ---------------------------------------------
    Now for 1.5x defence boost , that seems like much more fair boost for hail , OHKOs on ninetales would still be OHKOs , but look at some new vanilluxe calcs!
    252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Vanilluxe: 58-70 (39.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Vanilluxe: 116-140 (78.9 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    180 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Vanilluxe: 126-150 (85.7 - 102%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Vanilluxe: 152-182 (103.4 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Sudenly I think , vanilluxe would get much more usage!
    I think It would be interesting if they would implement ice defence boost , I would be all in for it!
     
  6. Pudgeysaurus

    Pudgeysaurus New Member

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    Those calcs are reliant upon "Helping Hand" though. What would the calcs be without, as that's surely a more reasonable benchmark?
     
  7. pyromaniac720

    pyromaniac720 New Member

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    Well the Helping Hand boost is supposed to simulate Hail giving Ice type moves a 1.5x boost
     
  8. Pudgeysaurus

    Pudgeysaurus New Member

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    Ah, that makes sense. Thanks
     

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